Designing the Workplace of the Future with Cushing Terrell
Almost overnight, COVID-19 has made traditional office designs obsolete. As businesses evaluate how to bring employees back safely, whether to renew leases, and how to approach remodeling and new builds, many questions arise, such as:
How do we redesign workspaces, public areas, and conference rooms to meet new safety guidelines?
What changes do we need to make to traffic flow and signage to maintain proper social distance?
How will we provide convenient access to PPE?
What materials, furnishings, and design principles will make our spaces both safe and welcoming?
How can technology help solve our new challenges?
In this free webinar, experts from Cushing Terrell will share case studies and tools to help companies redesign workplaces that meet the needs of the future.
Speakers:
Jim Beal, Principal and Design Director, Billings
Beth Schaper, Lead Interior Designer, Missoula
Cushing Terrell, (formerly CTA Architects Engineers) is a Montana-based company with more than 80 years of experience serving global clients like Dell, Facebook, and Google as well as local organizations like Bozeman High School, Stockman Bank, SoFi, First Interstate Bank, Saint Vincent’s, Billings Clinic, and Bozeman Health.
Transcript:
Christina: Hello, I'm Christina Henderson, Executive Director of the Montana High Tech Business Alliance. Welcome to our webinar: Designing the Workplace of the Future with Cushing Terrell. This event is part of a series The Alliance is hosting with resources to help our communities deal with the impacts of current events. You can find details on these sessions at mthightech.org/events. Today's webinar is presented in partnership with Cushing Terrell. Project designer Jimmy Tallarico is going to give a brief introduction and introduce our other speakers. After the presentation, we will open the floor for Q&A with the audience. We had some great questions submitted in advance. We would ask that our audience mute your microphones until you have something to say. And if you have a question or comment to share during the meeting, you can type it in the chat box or turn on your microphone and we'll see that I would now like to turn the floor over to Jimmy to get us started.
Jimmy: Well, thanks, Christina, and good afternoon, everyone. As Christina said, I am Jimmy Tallarico with Cushing Terrell, Project Designer out of our Bozeman office. And for those of you who may not be familiar with the name Cushing Terrell, we were formerly CTA Architects & Engineers. And we're a firm of about--a full service architecture and engineering firm of about 400 employees around the country. We have over 100 employees in the state in all the major areas across Montana, so we're available to help you all out as needed. For today, we're going to have Jim Beal who is our Director of Design and one of our principals out of the Billings office, and Beth Schaper, who is our interior designer out of our Missoula office. They're going to present some of our findings over the last four months of what we're seeing with trends for office design. And then we're also going to look at some assessments that we've done for some of our other clients to kind of show you things that we're seeing that are kind of trending right now where we think the future of office space is going. So with that, I'm gonna turn it over to Jim to get us started. And we'll go from there. Thanks, everyone.
Jim: We wanted to share some of the things that we've been thinking about the last few months. The workplace has been turned upside down shortly after we all went to work from home. We got together and created a think tank on what the future of our office environments are going to be like, and so we brought together team members from our Seattle, Boise, Denver, Austin, and Montana locations. It included some of our colleagues that are working on some pretty cool corporate office environments with Google and Dell and Amazon. And so we're going to share some of the things that we're wrestling with and then also some assessments that we've done for clients, but this pyramid kind of structures the way we've been thinking about things. You know, if we go to the bottom of the pyramid, that is maybe the most disruptive option to our businesses in that scenario, what if everybody just works from home someday? That's pretty impactive all the way up to the top where, you know, we could maybe get by through this transitional time of this virus wearing masks and providing people with PPE, but there's some steps in between that we're living in as well. For example, moving down the pyramid, as you know, we can social distance, we can rearrange furniture, we can buy new furniture, go into some of the designs solutions, we can reconfigure our spaces, we can mess with our mechanical or hv AC systems by introducing UV light or additional filters, or we can rearrange our rooms. But what we were most interested in and we think that we are going to have to deal with in the future is what is the bridge between some of those design fixes that we can do easily and getting people away from home. And so that's why we began to reimagine the workplace. And we're excited to share some of those ideas with you.
So as we work through this, and as we dialogue more across the markets that we work in, and we blog with some of our clients, we began to realize that this is really about creating environments that people thrive in. So we were putting the issues into three categories. The issues that the well building standards deal with, if you're not familiar with those, it's a certification that our designers have. And it has to do with things like clean air, clean water, promoting fitness, connecting to nature, we call that biophilia. And we're going to refer to that a few times in our presentation, promoting healthy diet, nourishment, connecting people to natural light. And then the other two issues have to do with safety and security. You know, not only does an environment have to be safe, but we have to feel like it is safe psychologically and emotionally and physically. And then of course with COVID it's about infection control and Beth brings some ideas from our healthcare work into strategies that we think are going to work in our office environments too. So we have been engaged in a multi discipline, multi industry conversation and doing some research on our own. We work also in addition to healthcare and corporate office work, we work in the education realm, in the retail realm, and government as well. And so, we've been doing our own research and we like to think about our process as beginning with research and ending with research.
Beth: Evidence based design is something that healthcare has been using for years, and how the environment can affect the patient's outcome. And COVID has made it more prevalent for us to use these kinds of studies and all of our markets, with our research and data and how to make sure that we're applying our design.
Jim: We're also looking to third parties that do some research and I wanted to share a couple slides from a Pushpin/Wakefield study. They did a global study, right. They were introduced right at the beginning of when people went to work from home. And they completed it about a month or so ago, but they surveyed 50,000 people in 99 countries and 38 companies and so wanted to share some of some of their findings. We also did a survey of our own 450 or so staff. And we came up with very similar conclusions as these, but just to share some of those highlights: 70 people reported that they still have good focus and they can collaborate. And so the productivity has remained consistent and strong. Where people are struggling is in, as you would expect, in those personal connections and learning, connecting with their colleagues. 54% of people have a sense of well being, that means 46% don't and that's not very high. And so that's an area of concern. And this was interesting to me and a little bit counterintuitive, but our younger generations actually are struggling more than our baby boomers. And that's a direct relationship with our baby boomers having nicer homes and they have nicer offices, home offices to work in. And our younger generations are dealing with things like taking care of kids and maybe having more distractions at home. This last statistic, I think, is the highlight that I wanted to point out and that is 73% want remote working policies expanded. And they're going to have a higher expectation of working from home and third places and from the office as well. And this is being thought about as the workplace is actually not an office, but it's a total workplace ecosystem from our own survey, this 73% number is actually much a little bit higher. It's around 85% for our burn staff. So what is a workplace ecosystem? It's the office space, it's the home, but it's also the third places. And third places might be a coffee shop, in the cafeteria, it might be a river. Very, basically, the notion is that giving people the freedom to position and place themselves wherever they feel most productive for their task, and obviously in other, you know, urban environments, it could include campuses and event spaces and things of that nature. So I mentioned we did put together a think tank and on our own. You know, this survey got us to ask the question, well, what is if people are being productive, productive at home? What is the purpose of actually having an office? Should we even have an office and our conclusion was a resounding yes, we still really need office spaces. You know, the home environment is where we're going to find the greatest health and safety. Working from home in third places is going to give us a lot of flexibility. We've proven over the last three or four months that communication still can be good. We can find inspiration in multiple places. Creativity can remain mainstreaming and creativity is very important in our practice, as well as productivity.
And so what we were finding, and we did this was an analysis for our own offices, and you know, every every company is going to be a little bit different, we would get a little bit of a different analysis based on who we were, who we're doing this for, but collaboration and mentoring and socialization were really, really high in our priorities. And so that's what we began to think about as we began to reimagine the workplace. Now, just want to point out, you know, some of those transitional policies to get us from where we were four months to go to where we want to be, say in a year, may not work for all of us here. So there's going to be some transitional kinds of policies that we have in place. So we're going to have to overcome some mindsets internally and you all might as well as you reimagine your own work environment. But I wanted to give you some examples of some of the attitudes and mindsets that we're going to have to overcome in the future. One of them is, you know, this is from the age of industrialization, this is from our school environments growing up, and it's, if you're not at your desk, you must not be working. That's an old attitude. And the new attitude that we're realizing is, you know, actually work is not a place. So, another example I want to throw out is, you know, remote workers and old attitudes. Remote workers deserve fewer professional opportunities than office workers. For example, we do have some remote workers that don't work in offices for us, and it's harder for them to get noticed. It's harder for them to be promoted. And so the new attitude is going to have to be equity for all because we're all going to find ourselves on zoom meetings like this where some people are going to be in the room and some people are going to be on zoom. And we need to need to be mindful of all of everybody and maintain that equity. And then just wanted to point out that the sacred eight to five schedule that's so ingrained in us is probably going to have to flex a little bit in the future. So how do we think about reimagining our own work environment? And this is what we thought maybe our new work ecosystem looks like-- it includes home. It includes the third places that we talked about. But as I mentioned, you know, the highest purposes for us are mentoring and socialization and collaboration. So we imagined we're going to have to have some social community spaces. And if you've been in our buildings office, you'll see a good example of this. We're very collaborative. So we're going to have to have some collaborative team spaces. But you know, we also realized that we still need to be productive. And we need to bring the best parts of home back to our offices. And so we're going to have to, we're going to have to have areas in our offices for individual focus as well. And then a big idea here is that we, you know, with every ecosystem, all ecosystems overlap. And so we're creating what we call these eco tones. And so, where were these zones overlap, we're going to have a social collaborative eco tone, and a collaborative focus eco tone, and we're starting to put some detail into what those different areas of our offices look like. And then we identified the essential qualities and I've already reviewed those but these are qualities for the workplace that we think are going to have a lasting impact. You know, there's going to be some things that are going to be temporary, like wearing face masks, we hope is going to be temporary in our office environments, or taking temperature at the door. But these things that make people thrive -- this goes for adults and children and people of older ages, but those issues around health and wellness and safety and infection control.
So we wanted to move on and share a case study that we we completed over the last couple months. This project is actually in design right now and we came back to our clients on this and proposed some solutions of what they might do to navigate them through this this transitional environment responding to this pandemic but to maybe put on their radar some strategies that they might need to consider in the future. So I just wanted to share a few of these with you. We organize these into some lightweight, medium weight and heavyweight impacts. In other words, what are some of the things you could do that don't cost very much? And what are the some of the things you might do that actually have a great impact on your building, for example, separating traffic going in and out, locating hand sanitizer inside the door and outside the door, clearly indicating how the building should be used and where some of our PPE is going to be located. There's a lot of focus on restrooms right now. Maybe there's an occupancy indicator on the restroom and so you know when there's too many people in there and you know you don't enter in there yet. Strategies have to deal with UV and ionisers in HVC system and creating full height partitions and things of that nature. The other part of the strategies that is actually really important to consider is what is the experience of these things? And you'll see, so this is that same space that I showed you in floor plan, but this is how we experience it. And we're introducing natural elements like the plants, that's what we'd call biophilia, natural patterns in the materials, but also standing in zones and walking zones. And we're showing the experience of some of these different strategies. In the middleweight solutions, it's a little bit more impacted. But just a few things to highlight, you know, we opened up the stair so people can see the stair, and hopefully they will want to go use it rather than taking the elevator. We're also reconfiguring the restrooms, going to individualize restrooms and pulling those things outside. And so giving people a little better advantage in infection control. And then there's a higher level of, of HVAC and lighting strategies. And then when we get into the heavyweight solutions, we're separating traffic even more, or creating more purposeful standing zones and walking zones. And you know, in this one, we're celebrating the stair. You know, we even tried out ideas on this scheme, like reversing the direction of elevator. So people are only going up in one elevator and down in another elevator and we're thinking about transitional strategies that become long term strategies, for example, this counter in the back of the room is temporarily for cleaning supplies and PPE, but maybe in the long run it becomes a coffee bar. So the questions that our clients were asking us in this exercise was what do I need to do to make my building more appealing, to attract tenants. And also, should we be developing office space at all? And the answers were somewhere in between light and heavyweight for this client. You know, they didn't think it was necessary to reverse the direction of elevators or have just an up and down elevator, but they did like easy solutions like celebrating the staircase so that we can keep people moving and separate some of that circulation flow.
Jimmy: Jim, I think this is good to point out just how it's a collaborative process, right. And so we're presenting these options, but the clients know their space the best. And so there's not a one size fits all for everyone. But through that collaborative work, we can really identify what's the sweet spot for the individual businesses, and that's actually a really interesting, pretty intriguing process. We'll get into it with the individual clients.
Beth: Next slides, we also see Cushing Terrell has done assessments of our offices, but also for other companies. And when we start by reviewing their plans, and looking for conflicts, and ways to help employees social distance, how also we work through our spaces and circulate safely through them? We started with a simple evaluation of a floor plan and look for areas that clash and overlap in a six foot radius. Once we discover conflicts, then we can recommend solutions and work with our clients within their budget expectations of their environment and staff. And as Jim mentioned before, even in this area, we looked at lightweight, middleweight, and heavyweight solutions. An example of that as a lightweight solution might be just making sure individual workstations, people are sitting back to back so that there's nobody facing each other. Maybe adding a little bit more to the middle weight would be panels and screens on work surfaces. Just ways to get up a little bit more protection to feel safe. And a heavyweight solution might be completely adding new furniture and reconfiguring the whole space in ways that might be more acceptable to the work environment. So, other places within would be hotelling, where traditionally they're smaller, might be just an area for a person from another office that's visiting to land and work while they're in town, or travelers. And these spaces are usually just small little places. You can set up your laptop, and maybe these need to be relooked at for a safe and social distance work environment, spread out, having more panels, maybe set up a little conference space if you need to have one on one, but making sure that you have your six foot radius of safety. Other areas that we need to address and look at, the amenity spaces, the areas where we gather, where we've planned to have open coffee bars and serving food and warming up our food for lunches. These areas are now you know, highly touched and contaminated spaces. So with COVID, looking at ways to add more PPE, spreading them out so that people can have an individual space, maybe still be able to come and have their lunch or a couple people come together, but still be safe from each other. adding these screens for both a social distance or also just that psychological feeling of safety and giving them-- you can see there's different varieties, you can still kind of see through some of them for transparency. Or the sense of scale different sizes for the screens in these areas. Cushing Terrell also has graphics departments, and these are areas where we can help people in their spaces with signage. One thing that we've always known is our awareness of germs, but just having signs that really helped put it in our forefront of that cleanliness of washing our hands and having it well designed into your space so enhances your corporate image and doesn't look like just something that you've pasted up to remind people. And some of these may be temporary too, as far as like the one or two person smaller rooms that still look nice as COVID persists, but can be removed if they're not needed. So making sure that we design these in our spaces so that they are incorporated well. And here's some other examples of wayfinding. And signage can be in your space but being aesthetically pleasing doesn't look like you just put up a sign. It enhances your space. You can use things like biophilia through the wood and the plants. And just making sure that it's not an afterthought, but it's incorporated in and enhances your image.
Jimmy: And with that, too, I think it's important to point out, like Jim mentioned, the perception of safety and feeling safe, the psychological side of that and opportunities we have with things as simple as signage like this, say, wash your hands or stand six feet apart. But if they have a brand identity to it that helps to promote that sense of team and can actually help the employees feel safer and feel more connected as a culture which I think is really something that we may not consider out of the gate. But it is a pretty easy thing, when you look at it, to consider how we can tie our cultures together in these kind of transition times and make people feel closer that are connected to each other and to the company.
Beth: Not knowing how long COVID will require social distancing, we also have ways to tastefully design the six foot office or paths of direction. These designs can be used as wayfinding or making sure that you're keeping your distance, but also when COVID is no longer needed. They look like they're designed with purpose and can also be incorporated enhancing your company's image.
Jimmy: When we were talking about these images for the presentation I brought up the quick story that we just got back from Seeley Lake this week and we all went took the family to the ice cream shop right on 83. And it was funny, we kind of walked up to the window and saw a yellow or an orange dot painted on the ground right in front of the order window. And it was strange at first and then I noticed about six feet behind another orange dot and six feet behind that other orange dot, that's something that now we're all becoming really familiar with, hey, this is identifying where I'm supposed to be standing. And so that solution was spray paint on the ground. I think what was cool about these images is to see that they do the same thing that spray paint was doing but in a way that really enhances the design of that space. And five years from now, it's still going to be a good looking space, whether or not those same restrictions are in place. So pretty neat to see the benefits of well thought through design that has kind of multifunctions to it. So these are fun images to look up. Thanks Beth.
Beth: It's also been interesting working in healthcare design over the years and manufacturers have been developing products that can hold up to disinfecting, but still have the aesthetic of hospitality for a more comfortable experience and moving away from that sterile look. These finishes and materials can now be used in all markets from business, hospitality and education. For example, the glazing, they've moved away from cubicle curtains and using more glazing and all of the options that you can have and it helps bring in natural light, which has to do with biophilia products and other products like the chairs on the bottom, it's actually using a copper-infused fabric mesh that has natural antimicrobial properties so that they are killing the germs that actually sit on them. And say, things like screens around your desk to just give you that sense of security but also help you with focused work. And adding biophilia like the plants for partitions and more natural light into your office that all helps enhance wellness of your office also. Along with these products, there's also other products, that some of them have come from healthcare, like using the arm pull or the Stephen pull so that no one is touching anything. And post COVID all of these things are also still a healthy part of your environment. Adding a sanitizing station at the time that people are looking to to wipe the doors as they come in or different areas. Hands free pull, our hands free dispensers, and the faucets, and things that you see in the country. For fabrics that we've known before that have helped enhance and help with joint pain, arthritis, but the antimicrobial products are giving them an advantage in this area too. There's also safe ways to use UV light to disinfect that healthcare has been using. These can be incorporated into your offices to be used overnight. And there's safer solutions coming out all the time that are even able to be used around people. COVID-19 has also made us think of the best location to use porous surfaces and non porous surfaces as we specify our materials. I see us increasing specifications in our public areas of the solid surface courts and glass. Luxury vinyl tiles and the tiles that look like textile and cleanable fabrics, they are more and more enhancing the beauty of them every day so that they look like a fabric that is woven, but it's actually a silicone or polyurethane and looking at the specifications of carpet and porous fabrics, and most materials in more of a private office or more individual settings where there's not as much public coming in and out and less chance of spreading germs and different things.
Jimmy: So just wrapping up here, we do want to point out that we're we're in this with everyone else, right and we're kind of going through these same changes ourselves, specifically in our Bozeman office where we're working on a remodel right now and our lease is up at the beginning of next year. So these are real issues for us as well. And so some things to think about are, you know, what does occupancy look like for us in our spaces now, you know, we have 40 employees comfortably sitting in our office today. And from the data that we've found, you know, we're looking at maybe upwards of 50-60% that would prefer to work from home or have some kind of a co-work experience, how does that change our ratios and how many people we can actually have employed in a single office location. So that's going to be a little bit of, again, tailor fit to each person's own experience and each person's company and culture. But those are the things that we're kind of nailing down and finding solutions for as we move forward, and the point is to not be reactive. There's some side of that has to happen, but we also want to think long term and find the long term solutions that are going to last. And they're all going to go towards enhancing our office experience as we move forward. So those bullet points on the right talk about the things that we have been providing services we've been providing for some of our clients currently. And we want to open that up to all of you. And just to know that we're a resource for you. If anyone has any questions about any of this, regardless of what the span is, reach out to us, let us know. Let's have a conversation and find out if there's ways that we can help you find some solutions. So we really appreciate everybody calling in and taking your time to sit with us today and open up to questions. And we'll go from there. Thanks, everyone.
Christina: Thank you, Jimmy, Jim and Beth. And now we'd like to open it up to the audience. Again, if you want to just turn on your mic, you can ask your question in person or you can also use the chat function if you prefer to type it in. And we also had a few questions submitted ahead of time and I'll kind of visit those questions as we have gaps in the comments from the audience. So, first, is there anyone who has a thought or a question that they'd like to share?
Well, I will ask this first question. I'm interested, you know, Jimmy, I know that Cushing Terrell has been involved in some education projects as well, like the new Bozeman high school, I think, is one of the big ones I'm aware of. Where do you see changes happening in schools and in education spaces. Do you have any insights on how those spaces might also be impacted?
Jimmy: Yeah, and actually, Jim and Beth are both working on some school projects. And I'll open that up to Jim as well, but absolutely, we're seeing that. I have a 14 year old and 11 year old that keep asking, you know, what's school going to look like? And that's a great question. So they're planning on going back on the 31st. It's going to look different. And we're working. We've done some assessments with schools throughout the last couple months too and have come to some interesting conclusions. Jim, you want to share some of those?
Jim: Sure, Jimmy. You know, adaptability and flexibility is going to be huge. We're already designing schools to do that anyway. Like the new Gallatin High School is a good example of that. But I think what you're going to see in the future is even greater compartmentalizing of larger buildings, which is not only a safety strategy, but it's going to be an infection control strategy as well. Flexible furniture is key. One way to think about this is, you know, this is extreme, but what if every kid had their own spacesuit, and they showed up at school in their own spacesuit? That's a little bit silly. But if we can go as far as we can, that individual flexibility, that's going to drive what some of the best solutions are. Technology obviously needs to be robust. indoor air quality is going to have to get better and better. For example, you know, Gallatin High was designed to meet collaborative, high performing school standards, which implements design principles and materials and systems selection. So I think we'll probably see more schools meeting those standards. And then probably a great emphasis on outdoor spaces as well because they're very beneficial in the infection control solutions.
Christina: So, in tech we have seen in recent decades this shift toward open floor plans, communal kitchens with free snacks and ping pong tables, kegerators. Those are like the perks of tech, but right now they're not really compatible with a pandemic. Do you see companies reevaluating some of these things for the long term?
Jim: I think the answer to that is we're not sure yet. You know, a lot of office spaces are under CDC guidelines. And so those guidelines and our local health departments are driving what they do. So a little too early to tell. But I do think that there's going to be some lasting strategies like what we covered today. We are going to be better about food sitting out. We're going to be better about locating people's lunches. We're going to be better about environmental graphics of how to keep spaces clean, and reminding us to wash our hands. But we still want to play and we still want to collaborate together. So I think those spaces are going to get smarter. But I don't expect them to go away.
Jimmy: Jim, I think you had a good point too. We were talking about this earlier about just thinking about those fun spaces in the open office area, that that's really kind of an incomplete solution. And I think we were starting to see that even prior to COVID-19 where there was kind of this coming to terms with the fact that we do need those focused quiet spaces. There's a balance that, you know, we kind of shifted the pendulum pretty far in the one direction or just everything was open. And we're seeing a kind of trying to strike a little more on the equilibrium side of that balance of the fun open spaces but also that kind of quiet maybe library type feel where you can have focused time to work as well.
Christina: When you are identifying the trends that we're going to have more and more people working from home, do you see your clients asking about or changing their approach to allow better communication and collaboration when some team members are in the office and some may be dialing in from elsewhere?
Jim: Yeah, I think that's what gets at the switch in mindset that we're going to need to make for equity for all. And it's equity for those, those remote workers and it's equity for those who are in the office. We're learning. We're learning skills that we never had before. We're learning some sense of unity. And we're learning better resiliency skills, so that we can overcome being in different locations. So yeah, I think, I hope this answers your question, but I don't, we don't see those going away. We're just going to get better and better at them. And as we rethink the eight to five schedule, and as people place themselves where they're actually most productive in their rhythm of the day, we are going to have to be able to work together not in the same room. And I think we're going to get really good at that. And I think our school kids are going to get good at that as well and our teachers.
Christina: Are any of our clients asking you to think about those at home spaces as well and helping their employees design home offices that will be more ergonomic or better suited? We've had questions about broadband access and how that plays in or are you seeing clients kind of extend their vision beyond the physical building to the home space?
Jim: You know, we do design living spaces. But we haven't seen it go there yet. And I'll let it open up Jimmy and Beth and see if they've seen it. I think we're getting to the point where people are going to be focusing on their own spaces, and companies are going to be helping employees bolster their own home spaces as well.
Beth: I think that manufacturers there's a lot of great options, and desks and those types of things. I think ergonomics will need to be addressed in the home, the issues with how people work and all the stuff that we've been moving to our office spaces. We need some of those at home, especially making sure that you take care of the whole health and well being of a person. They might feel safer at home and be more focused at home at different times than the ergonomics of being able to sit and stand. I know the first couple of weeks. I actually went to the office and brought a sit/stand desk home from the office because sitting all the time was not good for me. So I think those are things that companies, they really get their spaces and reevaluate. We're going to be having to address those issues of budgets and what we do to help enhance a person's home workspace as people find that flexibility between sometimes at home and sometimes at the office.
Jimmy: Those are great points Beth, and to use just our experience from that, you know, since like I said, we're all in it with you. Cushing Terrell was set up pretty well for the transition to work from home and that's some of the feedback we got back right away that man they were employees are just really impressed with how easy it was for us to just kind of pick up right where we left off on Monday. And just get right back into it. So that was the infrastructure side, we kind of did some research on what platforms work the best. We landed on zoom for us. And then for the actual furniture side, I know for us specifically in Bozeman. Yeah, same thing that that said we were kind of raiding the office for the furniture that worked for us when we were there. And also if there were needs from things that we may not have had in the office, but we needed now, we're pretty open to basically having leadership saying yes, if you need something, then yes, let's get it for you so that you can be comfortable working at home. So that again, goes back to the culture side, you know, where our culture was pretty comfortable and pretty open with those solutions. So that worked out for us and I think it's something that we're continuing to grow through as well.
Christina: Well, thank you again to the whole team from Cushing Terrell, thank you for everyone for joining us today. If you joined late or if you want to share this presentation with colleagues, a recording and a transcript will be available on our website and also emailed to everyone who registered along with the slides and additional information from Cushing Terrell. We want to thank everyone again and have a great day.