Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion for Tech Companies

In coming weeks, the MHTBA will be offering a three-part interactive workshop on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion for Tech Companies in partnership with the University of Montana Corporate Training Programs.

In this free one-hour webinar on June 23, UM instructors introduced some key concepts and methods for effective promotion and development of diversity, equity, and inclusion principles in the workplace and answered questions from tech leaders.

Instructors: Michael Cassens, Theresa Floyd, Elizabeth Hubble, Tobin Miller Shearer.

Full Transcript:

Christina: Hello, I'm Christina Henderson, Executive Director of the Montana High Tech Business Alliance. Welcome to our webinar: Diversity, Equity and Inclusion for Tech Companies in partnership with the University of Montana corporate training program. This event is part of a series the Alliance is hosting with resources to help our communities deal with the impacts of current events. You can find details of these sessions at mthightech.org/events. Today's webinar is presented in partnership with the University of Montana. So in a minute, Michael Braun, Director of Corporate Training for UM is going to give a brief introduction to help frame our discussion. And then we will hear from four expert instructors, Michael Cassens, Theresa Floyd, Elizabeth Hubble, and Tobin Miller Shearer, who will introduce some key concepts and methods for effective promotion and development of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion principles in the workplace. For the benefit of our speakers, I will watch the clock and signal when your time is up. And for the last part of the meeting, we will open the floor for discussion with the audience. We've had some great questions submitted in advance, so we'll share those and we would also ask the audience to mute your microphones until you have something to say. And then if you have a question or comment to share during the meeting, you can type it in the chat box. Or if you turn on your microphone, we'll see that and you can share your comments in person. And with that, I'd now like to turn the floor over to Mike Braun to get us started.

Mike: Thank you, Christina. Yes. I'm Mike Braun, UM Director of Corporate Training. First of all, just to say that it's a true pleasure and privilege to work together with Christina and the Montana High Tech Business Alliance on this important and much needed workshop. We have a great panel of experts today who are going to give us an overview of some of the the main issues on this topic and then also provide us with a little bit of a sense of what these workshops that will be coming later in July all entail, and I'll get to that here a bit later. But right now, I just like to bring a little bit of awareness to the corporate training program at UM, which has a nice moniker of Powered by UM. So as a service, what we do is we work with trade associations, like the Montana High Tech Business Alliance, as well as profit and nonprofit organizations to really create skills and competencies training, workforce development initiatives, and talent optimization programs. So we focus really on employee acquisition and retention opportunities, rescaling and workplace productivity, really using our expertise that we've built, obviously over decades in knowledge creation, education, and delivery, really to collaboratively develop and deliver training programs. So in this particular case with Montana High Tech Business Alliance, the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion workshop is a three-part highly interactive workshop that will introduce the participants to key concepts and methods for effective promotion and development of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion principles in the workplace. So the participants and registrants are going to finish the workshop sequence with a much better and clearer analysis and understanding of gender, race, intersectionality and privilege. As well as you know, gaining skills and proven methods for implementing DEI principles to affect substantive change. The workshop, the three parts are part one being definitions and frameworks, with part two really focusing on the business environment solutions as well as current trends, and then part three drilling down into organizational solutions in terms of some of the politics and the culture. So, with that, again, thank you for the participants today. I see a lot of familiar names, so I appreciate the turnout and now what I'd like to do is give it back to Christina, who will introduce our panelists. Thank you so much.

Christina: Thank you, Mike. Now, our first speaker is Tobin Miller Shearer, history professor and the Director of American African American Studies at the University of Montana. Tobin?

Tobin: So good to be with you all. And I also recognize some names out there. I appreciate your time and attention on these important topics. I'm going to run through some principles and ideas that particularly focus on issues of race and racism. In addition to my work as the director of African American Studies, I spent about 30 years working in the dismantling racism shield as a consultant. And I tried to boil down some of the main learning about things that I have found to be the most critical and most essential when a business is wanting to authentically work at issues of race and racism, rather than just trying to do window dressing. And from our conversations with Christina, I get the real sense that those of you who are on the call today, definitely are engaged in the ladder--that you're wanting to do this in an authentic way, in a way that can make an actual difference. A thing that I've learned to say at the beginning of talks like these is that I'm no longer really interested in convincing anybody of anything. What we have to offer here, we know works. We've seen it work. And our goal is simply to try to help you do your job better. And in my particular field, race and racism get in the way, particularly in predominantly white institutions, from doing their jobs well. We want to equip you with the ideas and principles and skills that can help you do your job better. So a couple ideas that I want to put in front of you. Again, this is just an introduction to a much longer conversation. But I hope that these at least could be immediately helpful in some way for you. You can keep in front of you the idea that these are the most effective things, the things I've seen consistently across businesses that are most successful, is that first of all, they found a way to develop a common vocabulary for talking about race and racism. Most of us in our society, the business community is no different, don't have really good words, ways, and modalities, of talking about race and racism. And we often trip over ourselves in the midst of trying to have a good conversation. We need to develop that common vocabulary so that we can talk with nuance and with skill about this very important topic. That's just a basic reality, to find a way to develop that common vocabulary. I'll mention in a moment, some ways that that can help you do that. The second most consistent thing is that those businesses who've been successful have equipt their leadership and staff with a shared analysis of race and racism, not just having the words to talk about it, but having an analytical framework to understand what it is you're dealing with, and develop effective strategies as a result. Quite often the impulse is let's just do something now. Let's get it done. We need to be proactive and absolutely want to support that, but if you don't have a shared analysis, most of those efforts will peter out inside four months to a year. And what I've been saying now, particularly in response to the realities of Black Lives Matter movement that is moving across the country, is that it's not only what you're doing right now. What's equally, if perhaps more important is what you're going to be doing a year from now, and five years from now. So the question I'm asking groups I'm consulting with is what systems and training and analysis are you putting in place that's going to equip you for that longer term work, not just the immediate reaction to make it look like you're doing something? Certainly those institutions have used the roadmap, that is that they haven't reinvented the wheel, to mix metaphors, they've found a way to work with organizations who've done this work in the past, so that they're not replicating errors of the past. And we've got some resources that we think can be helpful in that way. But there are proven and consistent patterns of things that will work. And things that won't work. For instance, one of the first impulses of predominantly white institutions is simply to hire as quickly as they can people of color and bring them into their organization. Well, obviously, that's going to be important. But those who haven't done the work to look at the deeper levels of institutional life, for things like structure and constituency, mission, identity, purpose, the ways that practices and programs are put in place, they haven't dealt with those facts of institutional life. Most often, most hires, first of all are difficult to recruit. And secondly, don't last long. Again, we're interested in long term, effective, substantive change. You've got to do some of our deeper work in order to prepare the ground in order to affect the fires.

This one is particularly important in this moment we are in right now. And as we invite conversations about the realities of race and racism, we need to be prepared to listen to the grief and the criticism coming from the BIPOC community without defensiveness. The more we can have those open channels of communication and invite and expect that there will be grief and anger in that sharing, the more equipped we are for authentic change in any business that we're working in. There's a lot of grief, there's a lot of anger right now and to pretend that that's not the case is to ignore an incredible reality that needs to be understood, needs to be listened to, and needs to be sat with for a while. And I've just been reminded that again this morning in conversations I've had with some of my colleagues that this is very real. A part of what we do is not only analytical, it's also effective, and in any environment, business, education, religious, we have to remember that. These are three steps that business can take to be part of the solution, particularly in response to Black Lives Matter moment and there're many other issues we have to talk about, that's such a raw reality for so many of us at this moment I wanted to at least get in front of you. Get some training and anti-racism for your staff and leadership. I know this ends up sounding self serving, but I also know it's true. That unless you're equipped with these kinds of training resources, it can be very difficult to find a way forward that has some lasting dimension to it. So we're not the only outlet that can do it. There's many others. But I think this is an important thing to invest your time and energy in and to get good training. That's not just trying to make us all feel good about ourselves, it's giving us analytical resources, skill based training that can actually make a difference in our business settings. I do an anti-racism audit. Again, focusing on racism, there are some great tools out there--again, we offer some, but are not the only ones--where you're doing a frank assessment of where you are, so that you know where you need to go. Because the strategies are different depending upon where we are. If we're at an earlier stage or later stages, we need to do things differently. And finally, join the thousands of businesses across the country to publicly, unequivocally say that Black Lives Matter. And then be open to feedback from the BIPOC community for having made that declaration. And I don't want to suggest that it's all a matter of just making statements, but I think when we can claim our support for a movement like this, I hear from my students all the time when they're thinking about the jobs they want to go into, they want to be aligning with businesses and partners who are authentic, who are principled, and who are talking about real things in real way. That's one way to do it. Not the only way, it may not be right for you. But I've been inspired by local businesses I'm a part of who have made that kind of choice and have been principled in doing so. So that was really quick. Those are my eight minutes. Thanks for your attention. I look forward to some Q&A after my colleagues as well. Back to you, Christina.

Christina: Thank you Tobin. Now we'd like to hear from Elizabeth Hubbell, PhD. She directs the University of Montana Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies program, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth: Everyone is free to call me, Beth, that's absolutely fine. Um, I'm realizing now how profoundly I'm echoing a lot of what Tobin is saying, which isn't a surprise at all. Tobin and I work together a lot. And one of the reasons is just a profound belief on our part that you can't talk about race without also talking about gender, sexuality, social class, all of those things. And so from my part is going to be introducing you to a number of concepts that I hope we're going to be building some of that vocabulary that Tobin was talking about. And so, I'm thinking about that, you know, one of the key things that I'm going to be talking about with everyone is building on a fairly old article now by Peggy McIntosh on privilege and oppression, looking at what does privilege mean? In what ways does that operate in our society Acknowledging my own privilege, and then, on top of that, the really important concept of intersectionality which is that I don't get to just speak for women. My position on this very kind of complicated wheel here is as a straight, white, middle class, able bodied, all those things. And so my experience of race impacts my experience of gender. So just an awareness of how that works. So Macintosh's definition is something that will go through there, but this idea that because of my race, because of my sexuality, I get treated differently in our society. And we're going to explore kind of, you know, what does that mean? I see privilege sometimes used as kind of a bad word--but for me, it just is one of the profound ways that my field of studies kind of explains the issues in our society. And the reason that's important, along with intersectionality, is that without understanding, coming from what Tobin said, as well about not wanting to just have a reaction and put no changes in place now without understanding kind of the underlying explanations for why certain systems, systemic and institutionalized problems exist if we don't have an underlying basis for that. Just like Tobin said, some of these things tend to peter out after a few months. And so intersectionality is a really key concept for me, that when I teach, especially in Montana, I'm looking at the intersections of gender and race, particularly Native American and Indigenous perspectives, and sexuality, all of those things, to move to move forward. And so, this is Kimberle Crenshaw, I always want to give her credit for having come up with the concept, the word intersectionality, the concepts been there for a while and she was in particular, in the 80s and 90s, looking at the intersection of sexism and racism. And so I always encourage people to watch her TED Talk. It's a really good one. And so, as kind of that foundation, building on what Tobin said, when I teach this stuff to students at UM I use an article by a woman named Charlotte Bunch, who gave me a real way to grasp what needs to happen to really enact change. And so Tobin and I as academics and Teresa and Michael too, although they are more facing out, is that we academics tend to live in one and two. And we don't always make those connections with three and four. And Bunch argues without all of these different pieces talking to each other, without analyzing, it's hard to determine what should exist. And so having this kind of concept in mind of identifying the problem, analyzing it, determining what would look better, and then working to change that. I see a lot of you here today with that in mind of how we make organizations more inclusive. So I was looking at some of the questions that people had already submitted. And I saw a really important question about language. Tobin brought that up as well around doing racism audits, things like that. And I wanted to point out with language as well, something that's really important to me that we will discuss quite a bit is the use of pronouns, the use of more inclusive pronouns, where we're using-- 'they' to refer to individuals instead of 'he' or 'she.' Looking at how that is a hard shift to make. Our brains are wired in those ways. And to me it's really important because while it may not resonate with me on a personal level, when you are looking to hire more inclusively, you're looking at issues around gender identity and sexuality. People in the LGBTIQ+ plus community, they see those things, and having inclusive language, in policies, in job descriptions, things like that, shows people that they're not going to have to do the teaching when they get there. Something my students expressed to me a lot is how tiring is to feel like, with every new encounter, they're having to re-explain why they use 'they' or issues like that. So keeping that in mind. So like Tobin, some things right now, I strive always to be an ally. But I realized quite a while ago that I can't just say I'm an ally. Ally is doing things. And one of the things that we have to do is the analysis with the Bunch model but also realize that learning more is on us. And we have to be okay with when we ask someone in a marginalized position, a question that they can tell us "no, and that's what Google is for." And so that getting comfortable with being uncomfortable and just like building on exactly what Tobin is looking at, just the importance of language. It is really important to the students that I have today. It is something they hone in on. I'm gonna wrap up there.

Christina: Thank you Beth. Now we'll hear from Theresa Floyd, a management professor in the College of Business at the University of Montana.

Theresa: Hello, everyone. So super happy to get to chat with you today, I'm gonna focus on why we think that it's important that businesses tackle these difficult problems. So the first thing that I want to point out is that business is a dominant institution in the world and in the United States, especially. So not only should we as business people acknowledge that our institution has done its part in reproducing inequality, through our recruitment and hiring practices, through our promotion practice, through our compensation practices, to the roles that we allocate people into, and to the way that we structure our organizations, all of those things that contributed to the reproduction of inequality. So we need to acknowledge ownership of that. But we also know that when businesses decide to make a change, the rest of society will follow. I think that we're starting to see a lot of that happening where businesses are making changes that push policy changes that can help, so the other thing that I want to point out is why does it matter that businesses do these things is that income is the number one driver of enabling people to accumulate wealth. And so our policy decisions and the way that we hire and promote and compensate our people has a huge impact on their ability to accumulate wealth. And we know that if we help our individual employees achieve their potential, we will change their lives and the lives of their descendants, etc. So, I really want to point out that as businesspeople, we have a lot of power to do good. So we should do it because it's the right thing to do. But we should also realize that diversity, equity and inclusion benefit business in a huge number of ways as well, from more creative decisions, to better innovation, to better connection with our customers, to having an easier time recruiting great employees. Alright, so what we hope to do here and Michael and I are kind of taking on the ... let's get our roll up our sleeves and get down to business. Hopefully what Tobin and Beth are doing is giving us the vocabulary and the knowledge that we need in order to appreciate the problem that we're all facing together. And what Michael and I hopefully are doing is giving some tools and some ideas for policy and cultural changes that we can make in our businesses that will have an impact. So a couple of things that I want to point out--number one, businesses have had good intentions and have made attempts to improve DEI for decades, right. So it's not like this is a new thing that businesses have been trying to do. And like Tobin pointed out, some businesses have been a lot more successful than others and actually achieving things and I would make the argument that after you create the shared language and the shared analysis of the problems that we're facing, the next thing you have to do is focus on changing behavior, right? And by making policy and culture changes that result in actual behavior changes are the things that will hopefully have better impact in your organizations. 

So for instance, what does that mean? We know that we do a better job hiring diverse people than we do promoting diverse people. All right, they call it the broken rung. So at the lower levels of the organization, that organization probably looks a whole lot more diverse. And then the farther you get, the closer you get to the top, the less diverse that organization starts to look. And one way to help to repair that broken rung and help your female and minority employees move to that next step and get into management level positions is to create a mentoring program where people are assigned the person that they're going to mentor. And the mentoring program is voluntary. So leaders can voluntarily decide to participate. But once they voluntarily decide to participate, they're assigned somebody. So they don't get to necessarily pick a person that they have a strong similarity with, because we all feel more similar, more comfortable with people that we perceive as similar to us. And also, you know, if most of your leaders are white males, you're going to have to force them to have a mentor that's a female or a member of a minority group, or you're never going to have like mentors for those folks. But the way that this changes things is that when we get to know each other on a personal level, the differences start to disappear and the similarities that we have with each other start to emerge. And those mentors start to take ownership of the career of that person that they're mentoring. And that enables that, that sponsorship to happen, and you get to say, hey, this person is an up and comer and you know, all those great things. So that's just one idea that has been shown to actually work to help repair that broken rung. And so I guess I'll wrap up by saying the way that we're thinking about improving diversity, equity and inclusion in organizations is to approach it like you would approach any other kinds of strategic planning. And I think Tobin kind of led right into this: where are we now? Do an honest assessment of where we are, where do we want to be. Set the goal just like you would do for any other strategic initiative, and then create a plan for how to get there and then assess your progress, make changes as needed, and create a feedback loop. Keep going back and trying again when you fail. And then the end result hopefully is a stronger company. It's a better place to work and you have a feeling of pride in what you've accomplished.

Christina: Thank you, Theresa. Michael Cassens is an assistant professor in the School of Media Arts at the University of Montana and the director of UN eSports. Michael?

Michael: Thank you very much. I really appreciate being here. I could echo a lot of what everyone has already said. Because I think we have a lot of similarities in the way we're trying to approach what we're doing. My part working with Theresa is looking at the community side of things. So when we created the eSports team, we wanted to focus a lot on the community aspect and the educational aspect of the team versus just competitive eSports which is where everyone kind of defaults to. But by doing that what we did is we created a culture of diversity and inclusion. That's what we wanted to focus on primarily, which is the most important part to us. And there was a reason for that. One, we wanted to make sure that we created a team environment or an environment where people felt included regardless of where they came from, regardless of what their educational background was, their socio-economic background was, what their racial background was, their physical/mental ability, their sexuality, and creating this safe place for them to be. And the reason why we did that is we found that the team became much stronger. So we're able to prove that even though we didn't set out to be the best team that was out there competing, we were a much stronger team because of it. So we didn't focus so much on skill as we did on how they were as a group. Now as a technologist. So my part of my background is coming from the technology world so I started a startup and early or late 90s and have worked as a consultant for a number of years since then, and so I get it, I get what it's like to work in technology, I get that. There's turnover because people are headhunting technology people all the time. So creating a culture is hard sometimes, and creating a culture where people get to know each other, like Theresa was just talking about, can be really hard because people come and go, or there's some inherent fear because of maybe some of these, you know, you're afraid that maybe somebody knows more than you because you're in technology. I'm not sure exactly why that is, but it's there. And so how we approach this in a different way, which is saying, how do we create this community? How do we create a community that reaches beyond what we just know each other as co-workers, and that's not always easy to do, because we all have lives and we all have things going on. But just like Teresa was saying, figuring out these ways where we have commonality, figuring out ways that we want to put in place these ways for each other to kind of be together. And that's not saying that we're always having barbecues with one another. What that means is, is that we have been using Tobin and Elizabeth, their thoughts of having shared language, having a way that we say, hey, we're there for each other. And then going further and saying, not only having mentorships, but also having people that are leaders in this diversity and inclusion way. So giving them a voice to say, I want to be the leader within my group, I want to be the person that is there that can speak out. And not only just be I'm going to be an ally, as a person sitting here, but somebody that's willing to say so I'll give you an example. When we had one of our legal legends teams, and I don't know how much you all know about gaming, but if you don't, I can tell you that in gaming when it comes to women, and when it comes to people of color, when it comes to any other type of marginalized group, there is a toxicity that lives there and at times it's very difficult. And so breaking those barriers down, it's been one of my number one goals, but also our team's goal because it is something that is so prevalent that it turns people away. I'm guessing that this isn't the only place. And so it's figuring out, well, how do we create those voices? And so we had a foreign exchange student, a young woman who became that, and we just kept promoting her to become that voice and not in a draconian, you know, bring down the hammer kind of way, but in an encouraging way that makes people feel like they're part of something and making them feel like, it's okay. And I think at the end of the day, we have to recognize and acknowledge that we're never going to be perfect, and that it's okay. And so part of what I want to do is bring also into this the idea of the growth mindset of saying, how do we not only acknowledge that we have something to learn from but how we're going to grow from there? And the idea behind the growth mindset is from Carol Dweck. And so I'm sure you all have heard of this before, but it can apply to this to where we say, how do we start from somewhere and then grow and know that we can grow? And basically, I like to think of it in terms of finding perfection within our imperfection. So how do we get there? So we all have things that are within us, our biases are things that have been taught to us even subconsciously, and how do we bring that out? And how to create a safe place to talk about those things so that people feel like we can all grow as one and I think as we do that, then we'll recognize that, and combining that with the policies that are there within the organization that then makes people feel like they can talk about it. So like having a feedback loop by allowing people to discuss things like, I don't know, an inappropriate email or something. I mean, that comes through sending that through, maybe through an anonymous channel, and then having that feedback come back but discussing it, it has to be something that's always discussed on a continual basis. It's something that, you know, as a person that [doesn't love] confrontation, that means when I have to have a confrontational conversation with one of my players, that gives me angst, but I know I have to do it, because it's part of what our mission is about. So we have to commit as organizational leaders, as businesses, to say, this is something that's that important that we're willing to do. So as I think about this, and you know, of course, obviously, this is a bigger conversation. But as we talk about, you know, tangible steps to do that, it's things like how do we empower the people that are employees? As leaders, we're not always viewed as the parent and they're only going to do the good things when we're not there and the right things when we're there. They're doing it because they want to do it, and it's part of their new culture. And so that's what I'll leave with, but that's kind of the idea of how we put that into practice.

Christina: Thank you, Michael. I see some virtual applause there. That's great. So now we'd like to open up the floor to questions or comments from our audience. And part of why we organize this meeting, not as a webinar, but as a meeting so that we can see your faces and hear your voices. And so if you have something to say or question to ask, please feel free to do that live, just turn on your mic. And that will signal to us that you have something to say. You can also type your questions or comments into the chat box. If you have resources or questions or anything like that, type that in there. Mike Braun is going to help me field questions and facilitate a little bit of discussion here. And we also have had some questions submitted in advance from audience members. So maybe I'll start with one of those questions and then if you have other others to ask, please share them. So first question: what are some of the best ways to set goals and measure diversity within a tech company? And specifically, when defining diversity? Are there ways to avoid how it has been isolated to gender diversity?

Elizabeth: I can start at least a little bit because I saw that question before. And so I was already thinking about it. And I and I do I think it is that intersectional approach. I think it is understanding how having an awareness of how different what I call identity positions intersect with each other is at least one way to kind of lay the groundwork that, you know, Tobin, Theresa, and Michael can maybe build on a little bit with that, but that was one of the things that came into that came into my mind as I was thinking about that, you know, just really important to realize, you know, how, for me, realizing how much my social class and my race have benefited me in my life, and ways to think consciously and be aware of those things. So that's at least part of an answer.

Tobin: I'll just jump in with another sort of comment. And I'm fond of saying that hosting an oppression Olympics will help no one. Often institutions get into those very debates and end up doing nothing. We want to avoid that at all costs, and recognize oppression anywhere as a blow against oppression everywhere. In terms of metrics, part of our extended training includes examination of the full breadth of the institution, I did sort of a brief reference to that in my talk, but we've got some guidelines about how to look very specifically at issues of policy program practice, our structures, our constituency, our mission, identity, purpose, etc. So we've got some guidelines for that. And I think that the heart of the question is exactly on point. And that we don't just want to have general goals, we want to have very specific goals that are measurable, that are married to a timeline and have, as Theresa was mentioning, specific, identifiable individuals responsible for them with a way to figure out whether you've done it or not within a given time period. Great question.

Christina: Maybe a follow up question that I have been thinking about more broadly. As a community, we do an annual High Tech Industry Survey and to date, we've never asked questions on that survey about anything related to diversity. Would you be able to advise us on whether such data could be collected or how to go about doing that to take a look at our bigger industry?

Theresa: Yeah, I think that you can conduct an anonymous survey. I've actually seen anonymous surveys that have gone out to tens of thousands of tech workers across the U.S. and they specifically ask a lot of questions about the intersectionality of people's identities and then they also ask some tough questions about, okay, so how much are you paid? What's your role and level? You know, those kinds of things to get an idea of career advancement opportunities. In addition, I would say get rid of any compensation confidentiality policy that you have to better be transparent and just be honest about what people are making. If you really want to make a change, those confidentiality policies are poison. And then also think about the diversity that you have at different levels of the organization. I think that you have to make a start somewhere, but also kind of being very detailed. Like Tobin was saying about where the broken rung is in your organization? And what specific things can you change to improve that?

Yuki: I have a follow up question with that. Around metrics, what are some example goals of appropriate metrics to be measured? And how, when you hire a diverse person, and then they get to know the culture and they know that there are these metrics, how do you prevent them from feeling like the diversity hire when you have these metrics and these goals?

Elizabeth: I can,and Tobin may be able to build on this. I think that's where that longer conversation, that analysis, that language stuff comes in where you are modeling in your policies in those discussions that Michael was talking about, you're modeling that this person isn't a token hire. So that's not necessarily a metric. But you know, in terms of showing someone that, that they are not just a diversity hire, it would be the culture that you've created through the work, through the suggestions that Teresa and Michael may building on the analysis and theory.

Tobin: I worked with a communications company a number of years ago, who were asking the very same sort of questions that you asked, in the midst of doing their anti racism audit and examining the ways in which they were engaged with the photography, their journalism, their technological representation, they discovered that they had moved from a dynamic in which they were always asking the diversity person within the organization to do the work for the organization, to having a collective conversation in which they had this shared analysis and vocabulary and were able to work collaboratively. Race was always on the table. Gender was always on the table. They were able to talk more about it, not less. And it was transformative for that company. They went on to win awards, they're reporting their action, not just the reporting on what's being done in the field, but the way what they did in the field has transformed the work of equipping organizations to be prepared to actually collectively engage in dismantling racism. That totally sets aside that tokenizing dynamic, which is a very important thing to be concerned about. But it's all about how well are you equipped to do the work so that you no longer asking individuals to do that work for you. And that's a huge paradigm shift with any organization. 

Theresa: Yeah, I would add a couple of potentially practical implications. Number one, I don't know that everyone is aware that quota filling is actually not legal. And so I think that there's some misconceptions, at least among my MBA students, they think that sometimes people are hired to fill some kind of quota in the organization. And no organization is doing that because it's not legal to hire a person just to fill a particular quota. So again, kind of like changing the language around hiring. And then I think that ultimately, there's going to be some pain points in the beginning. And like Tobin said, the organization has to be committed to getting through to the other side, when there are enough people of color or women or you know, people who have different physical abilities at higher levels of the organization. So competence never becomes an issue. But it takes a little while to get to that point. But I think that ultimately, more diversity higher up in the organization is the best thing that's going to help avoid that tokenism.

Michael: You know, and I can speak to both sides, right? So I've felt being hired or being put onto a board feeling as if I were the token Asian man. And I've also been hired as somebody based on you know, skills and so forth. And the the way that it feels different is that when someone is more transparent, and is willing to talk about all these things and not try to hide the fact or try to say we're not going to acknowledge, you know, whatever is happening, just like Tobin is saying here, talking about all the factors that are in play here and being okay with that, and so that I can feel like we're going to have an open conversation. And I think what's important is to acknowledge that there are going to be some changes or there's going to be some language that we can each discuss. And I think if it's brought out like, hey, this is something we're doing in a very definitive and in a very direct way, then it makes people feel as if they're not just doing it because oh, well this is the way you look, or this is the because you're a woman, or ... because it takes that off the table. And having all these discussions as to why your hiring or why you're looking for specific people that then brings it out. So talking about their skill set, talking about, you know, all the different things. And I think that's an important part of all of this and it minimizes this feeling of being a token because, you know, that's been something I've thought about, you know, living and growing up in a predominantly, you know, Caucasian world in Montana, since I was in grade school, knowing that even when I was in middle school, in high school, and going on to different youth boards and things like that, it makes you feel like that when you don't have those conversations. So I think an important part is just having a really open and honest conversation about it, it changes the dynamic.

Christina: Other questions from our audience?

Ja'Ton: Okay, this is Ja'Ton, Can you all hear me? Hey Tobin. I think one thing to just add is when a company or when an organization is opening their doors and showing that diversity and inclusion, you know, people are also looking at what's already been done. Like one thing that doesn't make me feel like a token is when I see other people like me within the organization. It can be a token if there are other people there, but also just a culture around it as well. I look at, does the organization already celebrate or acknowledge or promote Black History Month or MLK Day or any of the other holidays and celebrations that are ultimately important to me? And when I'm encouraged to bring my whole self to work or walk in my truth, my truth is definitely everything that comes outside of work as well. And outside of work, as we all know, what's what's going on right now is pretty heavy. It weighs, it weighs on a person, especially weighs on, you know, a person of color within these organizations. So, one thing I just wanted to throw out there is that during those efforts is already acknowledging what you already have going on. Maybe it's going back to the audit thing that that's been spoken about already. But those are things to keep in mind, the culture that you already had there. And and when you are including that diversity and making sure that that's already established. I think somebody brought it up earlier. Maybe it was Christina or Teresa, but a person doesn't want to come in and feel like they have to educate other people regarding diversity and inclusion, and then that's on top of the job that they're being hired for. That's a real big turnoff. So again, just my two cents there.

Mike: Michael, maybe this is probably more directed to you. But one of the questions is, you talked about the some of the issues in eSports. And I guess one of the question is in terms of technology tools, also with social media and online in general, we've seen race-related issues become amplified, but in what ways do you think that technology may be able to help efforts to have a constructive and more nuanced conversation about racial justice and equity?

Michael: No, that's a great question. Part of what we've done on the on the eSports team is we've partnered with a company, a nationwide company called Any Key and they talk a lot about diversity, equity and inclusion within gaming and within streaming, and particularly in the technology world. So it's giving a voice to people of color, women, and the LGBTQ community all being online and being able to be themselves. And so part of how I see all of our social media, how I see all technology, hoping to basically bring that out into the open and reducing the anonymity, which is what I think causes a lot of the toxicity, and increasing the moderation so that as people are being online, there's somebody that's there that's being present, being aware. And so I think--and I would never obviously, advocate for companies to be looking over somebody's personal things, but at the same time, acknowledging and creating that culture of when we are part of this company, our culture is set like this,nd this is the way that we conduct ourselves in all aspects of our lives. And we do this because of this is who we are, it's not because it's just the right thing to do. It's because of who we are and if we assume that everyone is inherently good, and then use our voices to do that, then then we can be a lot more powerful in what we say and what we do. So that's kind of the way we promote it. As far as all of the technology, because we have students that want to stream, we have students that want to cast, we have students that want to do all sorts of things online. When we say yes, we want you to do that. And remember, you're representing who we are, which is, and then we reiterate, which is we put out, you know, very, very well detailed, but not hard, right? It's just very simply detail. These are the points of what we believe in these other things. And we have it posted for them to read it, know it and then they start encapsulating that, and then when they walk in the room, they know that this is who they are as a team, and they promote that whenever they're online as well. So using technology, basically, to broaden their reach and broaden their voice. So that's what I would say about that.

Elizabeth: And there's some really interesting research that I've seen into the toxic stuff online and in gaming, I've read all of that. But also, recently, I've read some interesting articles about people who may be trans, may be gender fluid, non binary, that online spaces have provided them a place to explore that when they're not comfortable doing it in their everyday lives yet. Um, and so that, to me, kind of resonated, and it goes back to something I've known for a really long time. This is less of an issue now, but when I first started on this work 15 plus years ago, of some of my trans students saying, I don't even know that was a word until I saw this person's video on YouTube. And so as a space to find that community that may not exist. If you're like me, and you're from Stanford, Montana ... I both read research and have had students and even been on a Master's committee once in sociology looking at those positive aspects of exploring gender and sexuality in online spaces.

Mike: I don't know how much longer we have for questions, Christina. If nobody has another one, I'll throw one in from the panel. We've seen people being fired for racist interactions and personal moments caught on camera, what is a filter to make that employment decision firing versus training and giving opportunity for an employee to change?

Tobin: I think that's a really challenging question. It relates to the immediacy and severity of response to social media. A number of people have noted that more broadly, instances of racism in our country haven't necessarily increased. It's just that they've been caught on film. I think in a workplace environment where there is an egregious evidence of overt racism that needs to be dealt with immediately and aggressively, I don't think you can just take a pass on it. The question I think, more importantly, is how are you preparing your staff so that that doesn't even happen in the first place. And I would be much more interested in investing energy in the proactive conversation than the reactive one. I understand there's all kinds of complexities with the reactive one. But I think part of equipping your organization so that you don't even get to that place to begin with. But again, I'm more interested in the proactive conversation and the reactive one at this point.

Elizabeth: And then when you're not tokenizing one person, you know, to take it into a little bit more my gender world, you're not putting it on one person to explain why they use gender neutral pronouns, it's just part of the culture, it's not something they're having. And so if that's violated, it becomes more serious because it's in the policies, it's in the language and things like that. Um, and the other side of that, for me would be that we're gonna mess that up. And we just have to own those things on that level of language. And it's that willingness to say this is on that lower level of incidents of bias and things like that. But if the climate is already there, it's less likely to happen.

Theresa: I think it goes back to what Ja'Ton said about bringing your whole self to work. I really like that idea. And I think that there's a lot of normative behavior that goes on in organizations that implicitly values white male behavior and stature, etc. And I think that the work that we have to do is we have to stop implicitly rewarding things that are white and male. And that might mean like, you know, not giving feedback to a woman who cries when she's dealing with a tough situation because women cry, you know, not giving feedback to a black employee that they need to change the way that they talk in order to be taken seriously. Those things all kind of implicitly are showing that we value certain things if you want to move on in the organization and I think that organizations need to be more open to wider varieties of leadership exemplar, if that makes sense. And then that way it does make, you know, those normative things that we do are a form of racism and sexism and heteronormativity as well. Right? So we need to do away with those smaller instances if we want to avoid the big overt problems as well.

Christina: Thank you. As we move into our last few minutes, one question that was posed in advance and that I've heard repeatedly from other people, is what are some concrete next steps for tech companies in Montana, we would love to know opportunities that we can contribute with meaningful actions and not just words, how companies in Missoula, Montana, which is severely lacking in diversity as a whole, can support the cause outside of just our company. And I don't know that we have time for a lengthy conversation about that question right now. But I'd like to invite Mike Braun to maybe talk a little bit about the training that we're working together with his team at UM to pull together to kind of help answer this, like, what can we do as tech companies?

Mike: Thank you, Christina. And thank you to the panelists and the participants. Personally, I feel like we were just starting to dip below the surface here. So, you know, obviously, this was meant as an initial conversation and also to tee up this workshop that will be held toward the latter half of July. So in terms of the administrative aspects, here's what MHTBA and UM would like to do is, first of all, gauge the interest of participants in this workshop. And again, there'll be a three part workshop that will be delivered in five hours. So we'll have a two hour part of a workshop and then a three hour part of the workshop. What we're right now anticipating is that we will do it over two days. But we would like to hear from the participants who would like to obviously sign up for this, if they would like to do it in the morning, or if they would like to do it rather in the afternoon over the lunch hour, if the two plus three format will work. So to do that, what MHTBA will be doing is sending out a survey just to ask, first of all, are you interested in doing this workshop for your organization? Obviously, it's not just for organizational leadership, but really for, you know, all the ranks up and down the organization. And then the other thing is really to get a sense of what the preferred dates and time slots are. So that will be going out in the next 24 hours. The other part to consider is that if your organization will register and have participated, upon conclusion of the five hour workshop you will receive a certificate of completion, so the participants will receive a certificate of completion from the University of Montana. So, these are just some of the sort of logistical aspects. But you know, I think what you heard today was that this is a complex and multifaceted issue that needs quite a bit of deep dive. And we have some wonderful instructors here who will attend to all those and the ones that you heard from are the ones who will be delivering the workshop.

Christina: Thank you, Mike. And for other resources and other questions that maybe haven't been answered, we'll collect those and they can either be incorporated into the workshop or answered by our speakers in the future. A recording of today's presentation will be available on our website at mthightech and also emailed to everyone who registered. And I'd also like to invite you to join the Alliance as we read a book together: "Biased: Uncovering the Hidden Prejudice That Shapes What We See, Think, and Do" by Jennifer L. Eberhardt, PhD. We're hosting a virtual book discussion on Wednesday, July 22, at 4:30pm. Details and links to register can be found at mthightech.org/events. And again, that's open to the public as well. And then we will be sending out a survey as Mike mentioned, so you can indicate your interest if you'd like to receive more information about the three-part in depth workshop for you and your organization. I'd like to thank everybody for joining us today and we look forward to continuing this conversation in the future. Thank you.